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maryo

je to komplikovaný

"Zaprvé – i dnes běžně platí, že když majitel vycvičí psa k zabití jisté osoby, neviníme z útoku pak jen zvíře samotné. Pokud bychom aplikovali na psa NAP, byl by za svůj čin zodpovědný jen konkrétní pes a majitel by musel být nevinný."

Jak je to u dětí? Aplikuje se na děti NAP? V tom článku od Urzy se o dětech nic nepíše, jen o člověku, ale asi úplně ne, protože dítě IMO neni majetek a rodič by IMO neměl mít možnost týrat svoje děti. Zároveň by ale měl být zodpovědnej pokud jeho dítě třeba někoho zabije (když i u psa jde o příklad zabití). A u zvířat mi to přijde logicky stejný. Ani se zvířetem bych neměl mít možnost si dělat "co chci" a zároveň bych měl být zodpovědnej za jeho činy pokud jsem jeho "opatrovník" (záměrně nepíšu majitel). Proč dítě jen proto, že je mi geneticky bližší, mělo mít jiný práva než zvíře? A do jaký míry záleží, jestli mám to zvíře "v opatrovnictví"? Měl bych mít možnost ho zabít, pokud je ve volný přírodě jen proto, že se o něj nestará člověk?

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Nerozumím

Ty předpokládáš, že pokud vztáhneme princip neagrese i na zvířata, budou si naprosto rovna s lidmi. Ale neznamenalo by to pouze jejich zahrnutí do našich morálních úvah? Například Peter Singer, který se zabývá "právy" zvířat z pohledu utilitarismu (pro utilitaristy žádná práva fakticky neexistují, proto ty uvozovky), rozlišuje treatment (zacházení) a consideration (ohled). Zvířatům podle něj nelze přiznat například právo volit, protože toho nejsou schopna. Stejně tak by asi nebyla pořádně schopna si uvědomovat a nést odpovědnost za trestné činy, jak píšeš. Ale to nijak nebrání v tom, abychom na ně brali stejný ohled, spočívající v tom, že jejich utrpení počítáme stejně jako utrpení lidí.

Proč by rozšíření principu neagrese, jak jej definuje třeba Rothbard (i když vím, že zrovna ten má k ohledu vůči zvířatům na rozdíl třeba od Nozicka odmítavý vztah), mělo nutně znamenat, že zvířatům přiznáme morální osobnost a budou postavena ve všech ohledech na roveň lidí? Přeci se týká pouze toho, že proti nim nebude iniciováno násilí. A pokud to teda skutečně je tak, že rozšířením principu neagrese na zvířata si budou rovna s lidmi, jaké jsou tedy ty důvody, proč by si rovna s lidmi neměla být? Pokud by to vedlo k tomu, co popisuješ, není to spíš důvod pro opuštění principu neagrese než k vytváření umělé hranice mezi různými druhy živočichů?

catmouse

Re: Nerozumím

Lidi a zvířata jsou z pohledu ekonomie dvě různé kategorie a určitě si s lidmi nemohou být rovna. Což neznamená, že je můžeme a máme trápit, mučit atd. Také je někdy vůbec otázka co je správně. My si myslíme, že pro ně děláme to nejlepší a přitom jim nevědomky ubližujeme. Zvíře není přece schopno s Vámi "rozumně" (lidsky myšleno) komunikovat (což tedy někteří lidé taky :-)). Jedná na základě vrozených nebo získaných instinktů.

Mises:
Člověk není bytostí, která by se nedokázala vzepřít instinktům, jež nejnaléhavěji volají po svém uspokojení. Člověk dokáže emoce a pudy potlačit. Dokáže racionalizovat své chování. Zřekne se uspokojení nutkavého pudu, jen aby uspokojil ostatní přání. Není loutkou v rukou svých choutek. Muž se nevrhá na každou ženu, která zjitří jeho smysly, nezhltne každý kousek jídla, který jej zláká, nesrazí každého člověka, kterého by si přál zabít. Svá přání a tužby uspořádává do škály, volí, či krátce řečeno jedná. Právě to, že člověk vědomě uspořádává své chování, jej odlišuje od
zvířat. Člověk je bytostí se zábranami, která ovládá své pudy a touhy, která
má moc instinktivní přání a pudy potlačit.

Pokud by platil princip NAPu na zvířata a tedy nemohlo být proti nim uplatňováno násilí, pak bychom mohli být všichni pouze vegany? Nebo kdy ano a kdy ne?

catmouse

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Já myslím, že výzva k nekupování, bojkotu něčeho a někoho (vajec od slepic z klecového chovu, Babišových výrobků, cikánů, židovských obchodů) je naprosto v pořádku. Můžeme si o tom myslet své ale je to názor někoho, který se o své pravdě a správnosti svého postoje snaží přesvědčit druhé.
S myšlenkami svobody to má společné pouze to, že to je výzva k dobrovolnému akce /bojkotu/nenakupování, což je OK ale není to páchání násilí a porušování např. NAP. Na druhou stranu je řada věcí v souladu s NAP ale jednotlivcovy morální a etické principy jsou v řadě věcí jinak.

Hynek

Re: je to komplikovaný

Vždy jde o rozhodnutí soukromého soudu na základě posouzení individuální situace.
Třeba pokud 14 let staré dítě někoho zabije, asi nedostane tak přísný trest jako dospělý, ale už si je schopno uvědomit své jednání, takže z trestu nevyvázne. Soud samozřejmě může posoudit, do jaké míry za to mohli rodiče. Pokud dítěti vymývají mozek a učí ho, že zabíjet je správné, soud patrně uzná, že toto dítě nemůže za své činy o nic víc než ten ubohý pes a zodpovědnost ponesou rodiče.
Dítě není ničím majetkem. Rodič nemá právo jej týrat, jako nemá právo týrat kohokoli jiného. Pokud ho mírně pleskne, asi to nikdo nebude tahat k soudu. Pokud však své dítě bije tak, že mu ublíží, nebo ho mlátí pravidelně, může to soud vyšetřit podobně jako mlácení kohokoli jiného.

maryo

Re: Re: je to komplikovaný

"Vždy jde o rozhodnutí soukromého soudu...". Jasně no, souhlasím v těch příkladech, o rozhodnutí soukromého soudu by šlo vždycky ve všech případech, ale nešlo mi ani tak o implementaci v anarchokapitalismu. Spíš o ten NAP resp. o přirozený práva (a zodpovědnosti) týkající se dětí - jestli jsou někde popsaný (podobně jako ten NAP) a o to, že si z etickýho pohledu myslim, že by to mělo být u zvířat podobný (i když asi ne úplně stejný) jako u těch dětí (IMO na ně NAP taky nejde aplikovat ze stejnejch důvodů).
V článku se píše "Sice jako anarchokapitalisté nepřisuzujeme zvířatům zvláštní práva a ani je nebereme jako soběstačné entity rovné lidem, neznamená to, že by v bezstátní společnosti trpěla.". Těm dětem se speciální práva nebo jak to nazvat (jde mi jen o to "morální vodíko") přisuzujou? Já se považuju za libertariána a práva přisuzuju jak dětem, tak zvířatům, ale nedokážu je jednoduše popsat, proto píšu, že je to komplikovaný.

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Marcellus

Re: how long is a flight from buffalo to orlando

Travelers seeking a swift escape from Buffalo's chill to Orlando's warmth will find the 2.5 to 3-hour flight between the two cities a convenient gateway to Florida's sunny attractions. https://magic8balls.org/
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